BurlingtonPol.com

I'm a woman and I'm not offended by commercials directed at the consumers of my gender (I think many are tasteless and moronic, but taste is a different issue). I also don't feel oppressed. But I lived in the Middle East for several years, so I don't tend to pay attention to anything that people consider sexist. The reality is that life here is pretty d*mn good.

(Ask me again when I'm tryng to earn a living, I might have a different response)

 

Opression isn't always obvious. Sometimes it's so subtle it's hard to perceive. Sometimes it's so woven into the fabric of our lives, it's impossible to wrap your mind around. But it's still there. I worked at a call center in Austin. Sometimes female co-workers, who'd worked there longer than me, would hand me the phone and ask me to play the role of manager with difficult customers. They would say some people only accept a male voice as an authority. That sort of thing is a constant reality. It's fed by the images pumped into our faces nonstop by advertising and media.

Sure, America is better than a lot of places in the world, but that's no excuse to avoid self-examination. You should write about the middle east on TP... I mean your blog. That would be interesting.

 

"You should write about the middle east on TP... I mean your blog."

That sentence would be so funny if you left out the "I mean you blog" part.

That thing about the call center...those prejudices usually come from family dynamics more than anything else. If a man is raised in a family with a dominant father and a non-authoritative mother, then it would not be surprising if the man had more respect for the authority of men.

I think you are reading way too much into this. They are just marketing their target demographic. That's what advertisers do. I am sure they do lots of focus groups and other studies to determine who in the family cleans the toilets. There is a lot that goes into advertising. They are more concerned with selling toilet wands than they are with keeping women down.

 

"Ask me again when I'm tryng to earn a living, I might have a different response."

I doubt it. That whole "women earn less than men" thing is just feminist propaganda. At least, I never had that experience in any of the jobs I have had. It depends on the company, I am sure, but most companies are more concerned with retaining valuable employees, more than they are with keeping women down.

 

How on earth did that toilet get so dirty? That's what I want to know.

 

It's really sad to me that there are women who are willing to accept being oppressed by this society; in fact, who apologize for it. There just seems to be no question that women, whether they work in the home raising kids or they work outside the home to earn a living, do more of the household work than men. There are studies to prove this. Maybe some women like this division of work in some masochistic realm of their psyche. I don't. Read the book Second Shift by Arlie Russell Hochschild for a real eye opener.

 

It's interesting that Charity should choose to say "keeping women down." That implies that women are down. Is that what you think Charity?

Another thing to consider is why advertisers have found it's women who do the toilet cleaning. Is it just true? What about all the men who live alone? What about men who are roomates with no woman living with them? What about gay male couples? What about that tiny sliver of the male population who live with women, yet still clean the toilet themselves now and then? None of these people ever clean their toilets? No comapny should ever try to market to these populations?

It's weird, right? Ads DO NOT reflect society accurately or proportionately.

 

"That whole 'women earn less than men' thing is just feminist propaganda"

That's what I figured - but I'm not there yet, so I'll hold my judgment until after I have real experience.

"Maybe some women like this division of work in some masochistic realm of their psyche."

What about women who enjoy household work? Maybe I'm crazy, but I actually do. For me, having a clean, attractive, and organized environment is all about control - and that's no wimpy "girl thing." My boyfriend (future husband) is happy to share the household responsibilities - but he doesn't do things the way I want them done - so I do them myself. Because I want to be in control of my environtment - but I choose not to try controlling him (that's not very nice). So what if women statistically do more housework than men? If you don't want to, don't, but don't make other people feel bad if that is what they choose.

Read the book Manliness by Harvey Mansfield. I'm sorry to burst the collective bubble here but there IS a difference between men and women. I can't accept that many of my hopes (raising a family, learning to cook, keeping a nice home, having a career) are constructed by society. Thats preposterous. The truth is that I am a woman and many of the things that society calls "women things" are things that I naturally desire. Am I saying that women should stay home and slave over a hot stove day in and day out? No. But if some people want to do that, they shouldn't feel embarassed about it. Sometimes I think feminism has gone so full circle that it really isn't about equality anymore - now it's all about exceptionalism.

 

I can bring home the bacon...
Fry it up in a pan...
And never ever let you forget you're a man,
'Cause I'm a WOMAN...

 

You've come a long way, baby.

 

It’s really sad to me that there are women who are willing to continue to stoke the fires of a contrived gender war in this society; in fact, who enjoy it.

The funny thing is, even though I am a stay-at-home mom, I do the least housework out of anyone – unless I choose to do more. I make the boys do most of the house cleaning because they make most of the mess. And my husband is more than helpful – he’s awesome. I often want to do more because I feel like he shouldn’t have to, but he helps out all of the time.

I agree with Tirade that if a woman as doing most of the housework, it is because she wants to (or her husband is a complete cad, in which case, that’s her fault for marrying him).

Okay, I really have to go, I have housework to do!

 

Why is it that you always see men in lawnmower and snowblower ads? Because, just like household cleaners, the companies are targeting their key demographic.
Even if the man in the house is cleaning the bathroom, the woman is still probably buying the cleaning products on the weekly shopping trip. So it would still make sense to target her.
Like it or not, there is a natural division of labor between men and women.
How would you feel sitting inside on a cold winter's day watching your wife shovel the driveway? If you're like most men, you would feel like a complete wuss, which is perfectly natural because that is what you would be. (I'm not suggesting anything here, just trying to illustrate my point.)
I heard on the radio recently that American women hold about 45% of the executive management positions, which was heads above the liberal/socialist European countries, which were in the 20% range. That's good. In a lot of ways, women make better managers. Personally, I don't care who my manager is, as long as they are competent, honest, and don't micro-manage me.
I think you are making too much of advertisements.

 

My wife and I divide labor along extremely traditional lines. I do all the shoveling and she cleans the bathroom most of the time. I work full time and care for our son part time. She cares for our son full time and works part time. She does most of the cooking and I fix things.

That doesn't make it wrong for me to think about media images and gender roles. There is still a lot of sexism (and racism) out there. Don't deny it.

 

So, it's okay to take traditional roles, but it's sexist to make commercials that reflect that reality? Got it.

 

I don't think you "got it" at all. I must not be explaining it well enough.

Inequalities exist. Sexism is real. When we get a woman president, or a black president, or both, perhaps this post will be as wrong as you think it is.

But for now, it's not wrong. It's smart. I'm sorry I'm not able to get that through to everybody.

 

Are you endorsing Condi Rice for president?
Nice.

 

No. I'm endorsing Oprah.

 

While many men today (apparently even Republican men) do take more responsibility for kids and household, there is still no question that women do more. If you think it's by choice that you do more, more power to you. I remember my brother not wanting to do dishes as a kid, so every time he did them, he dropped a glass or bowl or something and broke it. Of course my mother just ended up doing them--and he got out of it b/c she liked her way better.

Google "gender wage gap" and you'll have all the info you need on just how far we have to go, and most of those links don't even talk about how women choose different jobs, child care, for instance, that have little value to our society and therefore are stuck at the bottom of the wage scale.

Also, as a woman who stayed home for many years with her kids while her husband built a business and sizable income, I know what that is like. And I'm glad I did it. But, think: I lost about 10 years of pay-in to social security, took longer to get my professional degree, and lost out on the years of building seniority in a workplace. Most men never have to think about this.

Take a look around you: the notion that things are equal is so false as to be laughable. Managers are men in most establishments. Look at the lawsuits against Mall Wart. Go ask for a manager at the supermarket: I bet that even though the cashiers are mostly women, the manager will be a man.

I simply cannot understand how women would deny this. I have to assume it's akin to mental illness, denial like that of people in the first stages of alcoholism.

 

Condi Rice is a liar.

 

"Condi Rice is a liar."

Good one.

 

"Liar" is putting it nicely. I might use the term "Satan's Prostitute" myself.

 

Didn't you get the memo?

Racism, sexism and homophobia don't exist anymore.

If you think that they do you are just a liberal cry baby.

Not that this is settled, let's unite together and kick some Arab a$$.

 

I wonder if she cleans her own toilet?

 

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 

"I simply cannot understand how women would deny this. I have to assume it's akin to mental illness, denial like that of people in the first stages of alcoholism."

Believe it. Also try believing that you are just one person with one opinion in a world with billions of people who also have opinions. Most, if not all, of them are of little or no consequence. You should really try to be more tolerant. I'm guessing your political views and lifestyle choices lie somewhere left of center. Isn't being a lib or dem or whatever you are, all about tolerance? You know, peace and justice and Tibetan prayer flags outside your house? Why then all the hostility? I personally like the idea of "I choose to live my life the way I want and you can chose yours."

Also, as a (sober) alcoholic, I'd say that your analysis of people and their beliefs being akin to the disease of alcoholism, is a pretty ignorant and offensive thing to say.

 

The problem with the live and let live argument posed above is that these "values" inculcate the next generation as they become the new leaders of our community.

Media, including, and maybe especially advertising, is insidious in its ability to create the society corporations desire: submissive consumers. If women are the ones shown cleaning the toilet, that "value" becomes societal. So much for having come along way.

I do not choose to tolerate, nor be silent, when I see people desiring to keep half the population in the kitchen or cleaning the toilet, which in the end amounts to that half not being respected or "allowed" to lead our society. Tolerance has nothing to do with pointing out ideologies that lead to gender hegemony.

 

Another thing... have you ever noticed what a high proportion of victims in crime shows are young women that have been brutally killed? It's really, really common to see hot, murdered women on TV. You might not have thought about it, but I notice it all the time.

 

This is all yesterday's news. Today's news is that the vast majority of colleges in this country have affirmative action for guys so they can get close to 45% men in their first-year classes (because their high school g.p.a.s and class rank are far below women). There are more women than men in law school and medical school. I advise my college students who are smart women that their greatest feminist act would be to make enough money to support a guy staying home and cleaning the toilet bowl and I've got lots of candidates for that job . . . Parents of boys wake up, and throw the game boy and x-box and every video game in the house out the window.

 

"I advise my college students who are smart women that their greatest feminist act would be to make enough money to support a guy staying home and cleaning the toilet bowl and I've got lots of candidates for that job"

I have a friend who is in that boat and as soon as she had her baby, she regretted not being the one who got to stay home. That's the thing feminists never seem to get, the biology factor.

 

Amy, your post reminds me of a column in the Free Press today.

The author said, “that women's hard work has gone a long way toward helping girls overcome internal and external barriers.

The problem is that few similar efforts have been undertaken to support boys.”

There was a story a while back about boys lagging behind in literacy, but when librarians were confronted with the proposal to create literacy programs for boys, they said they would not because it would be discriminatory toward girls.

People like Haik and rocksandwater are so obsessed with this idea that women are being oppressed, our society is afraid to implement programs to help our boys lest the feminists start screaming about it.

There’s more to it than the video games. (I’m sure that doesn’t help, though.)

 

I'm not obsessed.

Actually there have been many times when I was searching the classifieds and was pre-maturely excited about certain small business and job training programs, only to be let down by the fact they are for women only.

Where's the "step-up" for men program? Bah!

I do generally agree with 'water on the rocks,' though.

 

"Where's the "step-up" for men program? Bah!"

LOL!

I thought that was scotch on the rocks.

 

"That's the thing feminists never seem to get, the biology factor."

Agreed.

God forbid anyone use the term "human nature" anymore - especially in colleges. It's like some kind of dirty word. Incidentally, I recommend the book "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker.

 

The ERA will mean the end of seperate bathrooms.

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/lopez200602080754.asp

 

What would you expect from National Review? Schlafly wasn't right at all. The article only talks about her prediction re same sex marriage, which will probably come about regardless of an ERA.

It's incredible that a concept like "equal rights" hit such viscious opposition from some of the very peoople it meant to empower.

It sad.

 

I think it is AWESOME if women choose to defer working outside the home in order to be with kids, but I want men to make that choice half the time. The reason feminism is still important is because older generations are still pretty skewed. How many CEOs in the Fortune 500 are women? Two! But the gender thing is a system. The women who get out of med school with their academic prizes need to be able to feel like they can be good moms AND good doctors if they choose to do that - that burden should be the same as for the guys who get out of medical school. A lot has to change to support working parents and gender equity. In the words of Marian Wright Edelman "Superwoman is TIRED." It is time for MANY men to choose deferred careers and staying at home to support their partners.

 

Haik,
I'm wondering...Do you deny that it is possible that these companies are targeting their key demographics? I don't think you've actually responded to this point directly...

thanks

 

Let me think about that for a while.

 

"A lot has to change to support working parents and gender equity. In the words of Marian Wright Edelman "Superwoman is TIRED." It is time for MANY men to choose deferred careers and staying at home to support their partners. "

'Gender Equity' will never happen because it is impossible. You can't take two beings that are different and make them the same. This feminist fantasy has been a huge failure and ultimately a waste of time and effort.
The undeniable fact is that women are more nurturing than men. Why offer your young children a lesser substitute just so mom can go to the office and feel liberated.
I'm curious how many women on their deathbeds will be glad that they chose their careers over staying home with their young children.

 

I was just thinking about this picture while I was cleaning the toilet. How did that toilet get so dirty? I sure hope that was not the guest bathroom.

I guess while she was out overcoming male opression, she forgot that you have to clean your toilet more than once a year! :)

 

Oh. Now I get it. I thought that was shadow. Gross!

 

"How many people give a thought..."?
We aren't supposed to be thinking - are we? This is America, we're supposed to be quietly consuming, vegetating, commuting, or sleeping... aren't we?

L. Michaels