The following is a faithfully transcribed conversation between me and Progressive Mayor Bob Kiss recorded at The Bagel Cafe and Deli in the Ethan Allen Shopping Center on February 1, 2009 between 8:30 and 9:30am. The mayor is currently running for a second three year term.

HB: Thank you for taking the time to talk to me this morning, Mr. Mayor.

BK: Glad to be here Haik.

HB: It's now February, that's when local elections get into full swing. How is your campaign going?

BK: Good. I think it's underway and when I look at the calender, you're right, February is packed. So there's going to be a lot of forums and house parties and opportunity for people to talk about the issues.

HB: I see on facebook that you were in DC for the inauguration?

BK: That's true.

HB:What was that experience like?

BK: It was great. So partly the US conference of mayors always has a winter meeting and it's always in Washington, and what they did this year was obviously make it dovetail with the inauguration, so that worked out really well. The one, sort of, thing I've gone to every year that I've been mayor has been the US conference of mayors meeting in Washington. So I get a chance to meet with the delegation, but also to meet with other mayors. And that's been productive. But on inauguration day itself it was amazing. There were unbelievable lines. There were people everywhere. But it didn't matter if you were in those lines because it was a celebration wherever you were. I sort of described it as a hologram of celebration. There was no place that you were that it wasn't the same level of excitement.

HB: Oh wow, that's interesting... and not one arrest, I guess.

BK: It was very peaceful. But I think it really did register this symbol of hope for the future and change, and so it was nice to be in Washington. You probably know over ninety percent of the people of the city of Washington, the District, actually voted for Barack Obama. So the... you know Washington DC itself...

HB: Sure. The locals actually had an interest in being there too.

BK: Yeah. So it wasn't an elite that was celebrating. It was all the people of Washington and everyone else who showed up on the scene.

HB: And in Burlington too, they had a party at Nectars. By the time I got there it was at capacity. I couldn't get in, so I went over to City Hall to watch, and it was packed too. But I, I mean, I watched it there.

BK: And that was great. That's what I had hoped- that Contois would let like two hundred people join in that...

HB:And it was pretty full. Have you met Obama and do you have a photograph of yourself with him?

BK: (chuckling) I don't, no...

HB: (Chuckling) Because that would help you [this year], I think....

BK: I got close when he came to Ira Allen when he was there with Bernie, I was at Ira Allen and so there was an acknowledgement there. Because there was a little bit of banter between Bernie and Barack about the fact that a Progressive had won an election, just days earlier, over a Democrat. So there was some conversation there. Barack did send me a note afterward saying that he was sorry we hadn't had a chance to meet, but good luck in the days ahead.

HB: Nice. That's exciting. Some readers may not know, but you are friends with John Podesta who headed his [Obama's] transition team. Did you see him when you were in Washington, or have you talked to him recently?

BK: I didn't see him when I was in Washington, I think he's busy. We have emailed, so I do keep in touch with John.

HB: Are you having a good time as mayor? Is it what you thought it would be?

BK: I am having a good time. There are challenges in the job, and Burlington like any city, faces challenges. But what's amazing is that Burlington also has the resources and capacity to respond to issues, and I think people are proud of the city. Especially given what's happening around us- as a city we're in a pretty good place. So I've enjoyed it...very social... and you know in Burlington- you know this- you're never anonymous. But as mayor it's very clear that you're not. So when I walk up and down the street I have conversations with people who approach me. And I think what's really good about Burlington- and this is why people see it as a community- is I think that people know that as a mayor or as senator or a congressman, you expect to be approached and participate on the street. So that's been good.

HB: Have you ever talked to Peter Clavelle, Peter Brownell or Bernie Sanders, about their experience as mayor, or ever sought advice from any of them while you've been mayor?

BK:Well I talk with Peter, I talk with Bernie.. I'm sure I must have talked to Peter Brownell- he called and certainly congratulated me when I won the election. But in a lot of ways I think what I have done is move forward based on the twenty-five years of values and activity that really represents Progressive leadership in the city, and built on that. But it's a new administration facing new issues and we continue to work on the ones that were in place.

HB: Do you have a second, third and forth choice preference in this election?

BK: I don't. You probably remember- because we talked three years ago- I really ran that race to win. Fifty percent plus one. It did use ranked voting to ultimately get a decision, but...I'm going to run for mayor again to have it fifty percent of the people plus one of the city of Burlington, vote for me.

HB: OK . I have a few tough questions, it that's OK. You inherited a lot of challenges and a number of controversies from Peter Clavelle, and I'd like to touch on some of them....I have a few questions about Brendan Keleher's Pension, and I'm just going to read a block quote here...On January 13, 2008 the Burlington Free Press reported that “In September 2005, approximately two months before Keleher announced his retirement, Clavelle asked the Board of Finance to allow Keleher to join the pension system, with pension credits retroactive to 1990. He also requested that his top financial officer be allowed to keep the payments the city had made over the years into his private plan. He made no mention of the interest those payments had earned.

Clavelle said in an explanatory memo to the board that allowing Keleher to keep the money from his private plan would compensate Keleher for years of underpayment. Clavelle also argued that allowing Keleher into the pension system would act as an inducement to keep Keleher on the job.”. ...Three questions... Is it right when a city official who makes the kind of money Brendan Keleher had been making, gets to have a retroactive pension bestowed upon him, at a time when thousands of Burlingtonians are struggling with basic necessities?

BK: Well...this is an old discussion now, and that action was a long time ago... but if you remember the broader discussion that ultimately was approved by the board of finance was around the fact that, I think Peter had said there had been no adjustment in Brenden's pay for a long period of time and there probably should have been that kind of reconciliation. There wasn't a conscience discussion about the relationship with those decisions then that were acknowledged by the finance board. And so, I would have preferred- if I was doing it- I would have gone through a structured process that actually did review the performance, and then if it warranted increasing some pay, do that. But this was an above board and open discussion within the finance board and so I don't see it as so controversial although it would be better...

HB: It was unprecedented though...

BK: I don't know if it had ever happened before, but that isn't the way that customarily it would happen, but it was done in a way that the finance board was aware of it and it does reflect a conscious understanding of what it was doing.

HB: OK, another question. Did it set a bad precedent for any future city employee who opts out of the pension and decides years later that he or she has been underpaid?

BK: I mean, it is an event that's occurred in our history and someone could say 'it's happened before, can it happen again?' If I were mayor I'd say that's not how I would do it. I'd go though a formal process that adjusted pay- even if it was retroactive, even if we had to go back and go though it in a historical way. But it was a process the the finance board was aware of.

HB: Are you prepared to say Clavelle or Keleher may have made a mistake?

BK: Well, you know what? Like I said, it's not the way I would have done it, or would do it now. But it was discussed and it was approved, and that sort of, reflects decision making at that time.

HB: I told you they'd be tough questions.

BK: Yeah. No no [it's OK].

HB: Anyway. Moving on to city pensions generally. What's going on with the city's retirement fund? Is it solvent? Will city employees have to move to private retirement accounts eventually to keep or make it so? Would this happen by attrition? And where do talks with the unions stand on this issue

BK: Right. So you know we have a defined benefit pension plan right now and it's underwritten by the city, and I think it's important....

[Linda Deleduka approaches our table.]

HB:Hey Linda.

LD: Hey there. How are you? Hi Bob.

BK: Hey Linda. How are you?

[We had a short chat with Linda, and then she is kind enough to snap a picture of me and Bob.]

HB:...So we were talking about the discussions with the unions, and pension...

BK: So it's a defined benefit plan and I think that's important. It's the way that we're able to retain a workforce that chooses to be here for twenty-five years or more. And you know, just so people understand- for Police and Fire, this is their only retirement plan. They don't get Social Security when they retire. This plan is...

HB: Really?

BK: yup...

HB: Why is that? I never realized....

BK: You know, I don't know the deep history, but that's the fact of the matter, so...

HB: They don't get Social Security?!

BK: No, no- so they...

HB: ...The people that do the hardest, most dangerous jobs don't get Social Security?!

BK: No. So their retirement benefit is based on the city plan. And they contribute heavily to that from their pay. So in lieu of contributing to Social Security, they contribute to their own retirement plan. So it's a very important benefit and I think that we work hard to sustain that benefit. Remember the one tax increase we made in terms of property tax was the four cent increase in the first year I was mayor to underwrite the pension plan. And we're very close to having eighty percent of the costs underwritten by the reserves in the plan. But the plan is, and all the reserves that are in retirement plans right now have been hit by the current economic crisis, so we'll get a reflection of that. People have to appreciate that the investments in the pension plan are all based on long term investments so losses get reflected over years in gains...

HB: So you think you'll be able to keep the pensions as they are, without...

BK: I think so. And periodically we might need to make continuing investments. We did negotiate with the unions. All of the unions over the three years have negotiated additional increases in investment in the pension plan. There are still three items that we need to negotiate with the unions that would make the plan, I think, more likely to be solvent over the long term, but those are things we have to negotiate with the unions on and we'll be working on that. We're moving up on renegotiations now with all the unions. But I can't underestimate the importance of having a solid pension plan in order to have a really good workforce in the City of Burlington.

HB: Seven Days did a piece on you in their most recent issue [01.28.09]. They quoted Doug Hoffer and he said that “since Kiss took office in 2006, Burlington has been responsible for nearly all of the new private-sector jobs created in Vermont. From the first quarter of 2006 through the second quarter of 2008 (the last quarter for which data are available), Burlington created nearly 1400 new jobs, while the rest of the state generated just over 200.” What private companies added 1400 jobs in Burlington and what role, if any did city government play in assisting that job creation?

BK: Right. I don't have the analysis of what companies they were, but it would be places like Dealer dot com. I mean maybe not in that period but, you know, for example Dealer dot com has probably added a hundred employees over the last year. But I think that there has been steady growth in terms of small business in the city. Of course CEDO [Community and Economic Development Office] works hard around the sustainability aspects of building small business in the city. It seems that's where our strength really lies- in the capacity to foster and support small business. I think in general people- and I said this three years ago- the really important thing for the city to do is do what a city does, well. If we do those things then businesses choose Burlington and I think that is reflected in the kind of numbers Doug was able to quote.

HB: Again from Seven Days- Doug Hoffer says “I think it’s fair to say that it is,” said Hoffer, who endorsed Kiss three years ago. “I think Jonathan [Leopold] has been a big part of that, and the fact that Bob selected Jonathan and persuaded him to come in says a lot about Bob. He knows good talent.” If Jonathan Leopold were retire unexpectedly, are there other people in town who could do his job?

BK: I think there are other people that could be the CAO [Chief Administrative Officer] of the City of Burlington- sometimes you go through a process, sometimes you just know those people around you- I'd be able to appoint them as mayor, with approval of the city council.

HB:Any names come to mind?

BK: No, Jonathon is the CAO of the City of Burlington and Jonathon brings a lot of skills, but what's really critical when you sit down- the first Tuesday of every month all the department heads get together and we have a monthly meeting to coordinate our work. And it's incredible how much work is underway in the city of Burlington, and it really is a team that moves things forward. A lot of the progress in the city isn't just one department, one person. It's really people working together. I know that over the last three years, I feel like I've been able to make that team work more effectively. It's leadership. Sometimes it's Jonathon out of the Clerk-Treasurer's office. Sometimes it's Brian Searles at Airport, sometimes it's Barbara Grimes at BED [Burlington Electric Department] but all working together...

HB: I definitely remember that things don't turn on a dime. That's definitely true. I may be a curmudgeon when it comes to some kinds of change, but I never personally agreed with the idea of merging the functions of Clerk and Treasurer. I think I may have said this before. I believe that fundamentally, the city needs someone to act as a clerk and right now that person is Ben Pacy; and that fundamentally the city needs someone to act as a treasurer, and that right now essentially that's Jonathan Leopold. I don't see any benefit to placing the official onus for both positions on one person. Do you? What are your thoughts on this structural aspect of city government?

BK: I think it works the way it's designed. What we see here is that we have an assistant CAO for administration and an assistant CAO for finance and that finance position right now is vacant, and Ben fills the assistant CAO for administration, so the long range vision is that you actually do have civil service appointments, essentially, for people who do finance and administration, and the clerk-treasurer's position is appointed. I think that is effective. It ties the two together and I think that's how city government works well.

HB: Doesn't it sort of just add another layer, though, that wasn't there before- I mean the CAO position?

BK: Well I think in some respects that's better management. What would happen ideally is that, say if the appointed person who's the CAO leaves, you have the continuity in the assistant CAO for finance and the assistant CAO for administration. So, I mean I'd like to fill that finance position because I think that's an important role to have filled, but that give us, the city, continuity from administration to administration, person to person.

HB: And that finance position is already budgeted?

BK: Yup. It is, yes.

HB: Moving on to the topic of election integrity- The March elections a year ago were marred with controversy when Ben Pacy broke the seal of a Ward 7 ballot box three times, to trying to reconcile inconsistent counts. As a result former City Councilor Jean O'Sullivan unsuccessfully sued to have the election results voided. On April 7, 2009 Chittenden Superior Court Judge Dennis Pearson denied an appeal filed by Jean O'Sullivan asking him to reconsider his decision not to order a new Ward 7 city council election. But in his ruling he wrote "...Only recently promoted to the position of Assistant City Clerk, he [Ben Pacy] was suddenly faced with a situation for which he had been inadequately and wholly unprepared..."

"...The court also perceives the City's continued reluctance to admit once-and-for-all that a violation (indeed, three separate violations) of 17 V.S.A. § 2590(c) did occur, and the City Charter provides no safe harbor..." I was in the courtroom for some of that trial and as an observer it appeared to me that Mr. Pacy really didn't really understand how serious what he did was. And from what I've seen Ben Pacy has offered no contrition or suffered any official rebuke or consequence for violating the trust voters have that their ballots will be respected and handled properly. And the same holds true for Leopold, who as CAO is ultimately even more responsible for elections than Pacy. Did you as mayor in any way reprimand either Pacy or Leopold for breaking into the ballot box? And if not, why not?

BK: I think it was very clear- the judge underscored that there was no malicious intent on the part of Ben in the action...

HB: That is true. That is true.

BK: ...and I think that was the underpinning for his decision that the action that Ben took didn't effect the outcome of the election and so the outcomes were allowed to stand. I think the judge made a good review of that. Certainly we don't want there to be questions of integrity of the election process. But I think the judge's review of that and the opinion was the right one to make. So we actually did have people go though- and including Ben- training with the secretary of state's office. There has been, since then, additional training, and we continue to take the process of voting very seriously and I think Ben has proceeded to do a good job and I'm looking forward to having a successful election here on March third.

HB: That touches on...part of what I was wondering, but no official sanction, or, he didn't get in trouble in any way ?

BK: Uh, no...Again, I'm going to come back to, you know, the judge was very clear. There was no intent here to...

HB: Certainly not. I mean there wasn't any malicious intent here, but on the other hand it did appear to me that he didn't really get why it was so wrong to do that. And just as a, you know, election buff, or someone who really takes the process seriously- I think it's a sacred thing- I mean, do you think he understood that it was a big mistake?

BK: In retrospect, yes.

HB: OK, OK...One other thing- and this is probably the last tough, tough question- another thing about that trail I found curious was when Leopold testified that his job would be easier if no one party has a majority on the city council. Is it proper for him as the chief elections officer of the city to say a thing like that? Shouldn't he take every precaution not to enunciate, even in general terms, a personal preference for how elections should turn out?

BK: Well, I don't know Haik- I think that Jonathon is very dedicated to having clean elections consistent with Vermont state law. I think he was expressing an opinion there. I mean, we don't have any majority on the council right now...

HB: Apparently he likes it that way , though.

BK: Well I think only in terms of- as we do business it focuses more merit on the issues, rather than political power, really. So to that extent I think the process on the city council is constructive because we have to build it...

HB: From your standpoint as a Progressive mayor, would you prefer to see a Progressive majority on the city council?

BK: Well if there was a majority, I would prefer to have it be a Progressive majority. But without a majority at all, I appreciate that we work on building decisions based on the merits of the issues

HB: On the waterfront, personally, I'm pleased with the Moran redevelopment as it's proceeding myself. I don't care about the climbing wall, but I want the Children's Museum and the sailing center, and I want the building open, generally, because I think it's a beautiful building. Other people are not pleased with either the pace of progress or are not optimistic with the projects' chances for success. What do you say to both types of critics?

BK: Partly, in general I think speed can't be the measure of success. Some things take time, but you still get to the end. So I do think that we're continuing to move forward. You know that we're in the first phase of the the engineering and architectural work. It took a while to get memorandums of agreement from the three parters to get to that point. And it's the architects and engineers now who'll give us the details, that actually understand how much it will cost to proceed, and so we are underway. Some things that people don't see- You know water from the lake has always run under that building as part of the design around cooling.. So just recently we built a wall that for the first time separates the lake from the Moran plant. That was done by divers underwater.

HB: Wow.

BK: So there are these little incremental steps that have to happen in order to do the next step, and those steps are underway. I think the other big decision Haik, was voters also said that they didn't want to knock down the Moran building, so whether we're able to put this plan together and build it as we envisioned it the first time around, I think this other decision's really helpful, that we're going to reuse that building and I think that's a real commitment to the future. It represents, knocking it down represents losing one hundred and sixty thousand barrels of oil. That's just in terms of environmental consequence, [if] you add re-use aspects of it, so there are some decisions that have been made I think that set the stage for the future no matter what. I'm optimistic that we can put this package together and if we do, it will anchor the north end of the waterfront and it will bring jobs to Burlington, generate income and revitalize the economy and those are all good things.

HB: What are the chances of seeing some kind of greenhouse or botanical garden there someday?

BK: Well you know, we are talking about a green roof. That's definitely included. And as this gets designed... there'll be a lot of assets to the sun- there may be gardening opportunities in the restaurant, but as it stands right now there's no immediate plan for a botanical garden there.

HB: I think if it works out to be a really sunny building that would be a draw in the winter.

BK: Yeah. No, I agree.

HB:At least one person I've spoken with would like to see the North Forty urban reserve landscaped into a park. Any thoughts on that?

BK: Well partly we've deferred some of the decision making around this to the next generation, and you probably saw that there is some effort now to say well maybe that's now. So I think part of the future is to decide how we want to use the North Forty. Certainly park land is an option and I've argued that open space isn't wasted space. You see that. I think as the future goes forward we're going to want more opportunity to have open space so having more park land there certainly is one option. In the meantime, just having that open green space, undeveloped, is a plus. I mean that's a victory for the people of Burlington that we were able to preserve those forty acres.

HB: Um, let's see... where are we in terms of creating a multi-modal transportation center on the waterfront? And how many years away is intercity rail, that would link Burlington to New York or Boston or Montreal?

BK: Remember we did have a plan for a multi-modal center on the waterfront at one-thirty-one Battery Street and that's been rejected and we're moving on. We just signed an agreement with CCTA [Chittenden County Transportation Authority]. They'll be the lead developer on a proposed multi-modal center out of the Department of Employment building on Pearl Street and in that area. So that site has been chosen as the site to move forward on and so there is work underway to develop a multi-modal center there. Rail out of downtown Burlington- I support that. You know, we've just had eight years of not much support for things like Amtrak or rail. Still in Vermont and in Burlington there's interest to have a west coast rail service to Rutland that would get us to Albany and New York. So to the extent that as mayor I can encourage that, I will.

HB: I thought the Champlain Flyer was- it's a good thing to bring kids on and it's fun, but with the exception of Charlotte, it really doesn't go anywhere so I don't think it was really destined to succeed as a real transportation option, other than as a tourist thing. But I like that idea and I wish it would actually go to a city.

BK: And Essex Junction would like to see a connection between Essex Junction and Burlington. Because we have rail opportunity, you keep thinking we should be able to do something with that. You know to get to Charlotte it was like a seventeen million dollar investment to re-do the bed. I mean the big investment there for the Flyer was getting the track in, in order to actually support it. And so no matter what happened in terms of the Flyer in the end, it got us to Charlotte for that run to Rutland and to Albany, so there was an incremental benefit.

HB: So hopefully somewhere down the line that will flesh-out

BK: Yup.

HB: One of my ideas is to see a set of stairs built between Battery Park and the waterfront...

BK: Absolutely.

HB: I think that would be a good thing for both parks. It would have a multiplier effect because it would make each park more accessible to the other. Ultimately I'd like to see something really beautiful landscaped into that hill that included plateaus, benches, fountains...

BK: Some of that planning is going on right now. We have some federal money and are doing the side streets from the marketplace down to the waterfront, so Cherry is sort of in line to be looked at now. A stairway down from Cherry Street would connect all that structured parking to the waterfront and I think that's an area where that is being explored. Of course the other thing that’s being talked about, and talked about for years is a funicular like the one in Quebec City. It’s essentially an elevator that goes up and down hill, but it’s not an elevator, it’s bigger.

HB: Almost like a tram?

BK: Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve been to Quebec City …

HB: No I haven’t.

BK: …but there’s a really effective- they have right in their downtown area there’s a pretty steep hill and so this funicular moves people up and down. There’s one in…

HB: That’s similar to Peter Clavelle’s gondola idea, except I’m picturing it grounded from the bottom instead of from the top.

BK: Yeah- I think it’s sort of like, more substantial…there’s one in Los Angeles , I mean they do exist around the world…

HB: Sure…

BK: So I think that’s definitely on the table for discussion and I think there would be a benefit if we could put some of those things together. A stairway- you know what- there’s a stairway up Mount Royal in Montreal , new- a new one. Really easy, helps people go up and down. We could have a stairway like that…

HB: I think that would be really great. The area left to put it is kind of running out on the waterfront, because of the development there- if we’re going to do something like that we should do it before we block our own access with more development…

BK: I agree. I think it would be a plus. We should be moving on that. You know, also there’s real interest on the part of Burlington College to have more direct access to the waterfront so there’s potential there as well.

HB: I remember when they closed Depot Street in nineteen eighty-six or seven after there was a car accident-

BK: Yeah…

HB: …A pretty tragic car accident….Let’s see… OK… Burlington Telecom…How is Burlington Telecom going? Is it making money yet? Is the whole city hooked up? And is that a prerequisite to it offering its services to other cities?

BK: So fiber to the home passes all the homes in Burlington now. So definitely beyond fifteen thousand households could have access. There are still some parts of the city that where to get the fiber there we’re either going to have to go carve into the rock, or we have to negotiate agreements, so for all practical purposes we’re there, but the next step to get everyone is costly and so we’re working out those details. BT [Burlington Telecom] itself is, I think, cash flow positive in terms of its operations, but it’s still not cash flow positive yet in terms of paying back its investment. And so that’s where we have to get to before I think we can, with a lot of energy, try to figure out how to expand it to additional service areas outside the city. So the initial plan which was very ambitious, really, two years ago, had envisioned that maybe we could export BT to other places but, I think we took a- from our business plan we had to take a step back and say we had to make sure we were cash flow positive before we began to make additional expansive investment outside the city.

HB: And it is now cash flow positive?

BK: It’s cash flow positive for operations, but not for investment…

HB: So is that roughly analogous to- it’s not running a deficit but it still has a debt?

BK: Yeah, we want the cash flow to be paying for its operations and also appropriate payments on its debt.

HB: Oh, I see.

BK: We’re hoping that FY10 [fiscal year 2010] next year, represents that opportunity. So we’re continuing to expand in terms of providing services to businesses and residential service. What's very clear is that the hub, what we've built here is at the front end of technology- that when people come and look at it they say 'this is right.' So now it's still making the business model work, and we're at that work. I think we're in a good position to succeed.

HB: A controversy erupted when the new head of Burlington Telecom Chris Burns decided on his own to remove Al Jazeera English from the channel roster. You had to step in and ask that public input be considered . Public input was then taken and it was overwhelmingly in favor of keeping the channel so the channel stayed. Other candidates seem to be clamoring to take the politics out of programming decisions, and the enterprise as a whole. But isn't that really impossible since BT is part of city government and ultimately answerable to the citizens of Burlington whether they're subscribers or not?

BK: Well it is a program element of the City of Burlington. The goal is- you want to de-politicize it and you know it does have a carriage policy. So Burlington Telecom has a policy about how programming shows up there. Really all I did was ask for a review of the carriage policy and to have more opportunity for people to contribute to that decision before it was made. The way we've set it up- I mean essentially we're saying that the manager of Burlington Telecom implements the carriage policy, but it has opportunity for review from the committees, and a place to offer recommendations from the people of Burlington. I thought that process worked pretty well. I asked Chris to open it up to more public testimony. He used the advisory boards to do that. They did a good job and I think the people of Burlington were very responsible in responding.

HB: Do you think he may have jumped the gun a little bit in making that initial decision before accepting that input?

BK: He said he said he had been receiving some criticism from people about the station and I think he may have underestimated the importance of Al Jazeera English to the people of Burlington, not even so much in people wanting to watch it, but in wanting to allow other people to watch it if that was their choice.

HB: Right. I saw it as a free speech issue.

BK: Yeah, yeah- I mean, the largest number of comments I got from people was 'Bob, I'm not going to watch Al Jazeera English but I want people to have the chance to do that if they want to do that.'

HB: In my opinion Burlington residents should be able to pay any city bill online- Tax, Water, Parking Tickets, Electric, et cetera. Burlington Telecom just started taking online payments for its services. Might the city get creative and let them take payments for other city departments as well?

BK: Well I don't know if that could be...that would probably be a challenge for Burlington Telecom. One of the things we talked about in the open government review process we just went through certainly was our IT [Information Technology] system and we need to make an investment there to try to have a more comprehensive web page presence that's supported but also to look at these kinds of opportunities for direct payments. I think actually- BED probably takes payments like that now.

HB: Do they?

BK: I think they might. You know what? Haik- I don't want to stake my life on that, but...

HB: That's OK, if it's not true, then I won't print it.

BK: ...but certainly we should be moving in that direction, because that's good government.

HB: What about putting beepers in the remote controls that Burlington Telecom offers so that you can find them in the cushions of your couch when the remote is lost?

BK: [Laughter]

HB: I'm serious about that idea! I think that would be a major selling point for the enterprise.

BK: Do they exist? I mean, does that work?

HB: Uh, yeah I mean, The Sharper Image has like a novelty remote control that has that, and it just seems like something that should exist in all remote controls, with a base at the television that you can page the remote with, so that you can find it when it's lost...

BK: What I've found out, sort of, in working with Burlington Telecom is that in the scheme of things, we're a small company...

HB: Oh definitely, compared to Comcast.

BK: We really have to rely on other people sort of big saying 'OK it's got to be there.' Then we can buy that product. There's not that many things where we can say 'we want it this way' because they say 'well- how many households are you serving?' You know, it's like, fifteen thousand- that doesn't... But I think that's a good idea.

HB: In the Seven Days piece that printed this week Ken Picard wrote “Kiss is looking into a pilot project that would recapture McNeil’s waste heat to warm an estimated 8000 homes in Burlington’s North End.” Will new pipes have to be laid for that? And what will it take to make that a reality? That sounds like an ambitious endeavor.

BK: Yeah this is called 'district energy.' That's the, sort of, title that is goes under and for a long time we talked about the ability to pump hot water up to UVM [The University of Vermont] and Fletcher Allen to provide their heat. Since then UVM has converted to a steam system. Fletcher Allen still has hot water. The excitement of this would be that there is enough heat being wasted- we don't put it anywhere- to heat eight thousand homes in the City of Burlington. The structure, the infrastructure to do that would be substantial, but if you did it, it would be a payback in twenty-five years but it would be a system that would provide heat for fifty years. That's what's happening in Denmark.. Copenhagen, for example- ninety-eight percent of the city is provided heat through district energy. We had a team from Denmark come, and you know- if we had the money, they'd put that in place tomorrow. So it is something for us to look at seriously. It would have to be... we'd have to have help in the kind of infrastructure investment that would bring it to people's homes. But it's not pie in the sky. That's why if we could get the money to do a pilot in Burlington I think we could begin to see how much of a benefit McNeil is, beyond electricity in terms of the heat it produces.

HB: Do you think there might be some money for that in the stimulus package?

BK: Well, you know, I think so. Maybe as a pilot because it would put a lot of people to work because you'd have to have a whole piping system to the neighborhoods and into people's homes.

HB: How much does something like that cost initially? Fifty million dollars?

BK: Uh, I think the number- thirty-four million is the number that comes to mind.

HB: Thirty-four million? Yeah.

BK: Yeah.

HB: OK, um.... What's going on with wastewater? I hear rumblings. There's controversy about stormwater. Wastewater. That's about all I know, though. Can you tell me what's going on with wastewater?

BK: Actually no controversy at all. The city just passed a stormwater ordinance that creates a... In South Burlington they just created a new stormwater utility. In Burlington we're creating a stormwater ordinance that expands the work of water and wastewater so that we have more capacity to respond to stormwater issues. And that really helps us conform with federal and state requirements that we have to conform to. And what it will allow us to do is- we'll hire an engineer. There'll be one new employee that will be focused on stormwater. And so we'll be able to- at all constructions sites there will be policies in place so people don't dump into the lake, or create situations where runoff goes into the lake. We'll be definitely doing education around important things like picking up after your dog. And the consequences if you don't, all that material goes into the lake and it has chloroform counts that show up badly. So a lot of this is around education. It's around permitting and enforcement. And it will allow us- this will develop about a million dollars a year and allow us to continue working on stormwater infrastructure. We've been running sort of hit or miss on this for a while. So a very positive outcome that we passed the ordinance The Conservation Law Foundation supported. The Vermont League of Cities and Towns helped contribute to the process. So, it's a plus... [Pause]... So that's not controversy. That's very good.

HB: Hey, you know. Anonymous comments on my blog. You can't always trust them.

BK: ...So there's a cost to people. This will be thirty-eight dollars a year for a single family home or a duplex, it will be, I think, forty-three dollars for a triplex, and then bigger properties it will be based on their impervious surface. So there will be fees involved. In the first year we'll only implement half of that fee and then in the second it will go to a full fee, but it will develop about a million dollars a year to be dedicated to stormwater operations.

HB: Huh. OK...

BK: ...And it protects Lake Champlain. The goal here is to protect our water.

HB: Certainly. Because the Beaches do tend to close a lot.

BK: No, not so much actually if you looked at the statistics, but Blanchard beach, for example...Potash Brook, that's where problems occur when rain goes washing down and you see that showing up there. We've done a lot of work at improving conditions in Burlington and separating stormwater from sewer....So right now we want there to be permitting so that people conform with and comply with stormwater regulations, and I think with an engineer on board to be able to get out there and educate and review and enforce, we'll do a better job at that.

HB: Well I thought this was a longer list [my list of questions]. I thought it would take me longer. But just to wrap up, what would you say are a few of your proudest accomplishments as mayor so far, if you just want to tick off two or three that you really think are important and what plans would you see going forward if you win a second term?

BK: So Haik, three years ago I said I wanted to have an efficient government that met the needs of people. That's not just rhetoric. If we use money wisely, I think you can do a better job. And part of that is twenty-five years of working with people and trying to economize so there's more money used wisely. In these three years we're going to be able to do that. The City of Burlington is better off now than it was three years ago, particularly in terms of its finances and by doing that we're able to be a stronger city and do more. Given what's happening around us, Burlington's in a pretty good position. And I don't think the full impact of the economics are going to hit us for a year. That's kind of how it works. But I think we're better prepared to be able to respond. Beyond that, you know I really wanted there to be more participation in government and I've worked hard to encourage citizen participation- things like Citizens' Budget Committee... so that first year you almost have to rush to a budget because you come in in April. We added seven people to the budget process that were citizens. In year two we added twenty-five people. The benefit of that is that there are people who come with no particular agenda, but an interest. And they go through the process of building the budget and at the end when it comes time for the city council to vote on it, there are twenty-five people, who with no ax to grind say 'I reviewed this budget, here's why I support it.' It's been very constructive. And when you talk about open government, it's that kind of inclusion that helps answer people's questions. So that's been a plus. We've done other things to open that up, to include more people in the process of government. That's a good thing. The Moran Plant is a good example of going through a process, making a decision about using Moran and then working with the City and the people of Burlington to come to a plan that they can support. Even in that we had a thing called the Moran Advisory Group [MAG]. That was seventeen people, citizens that participated...with others...to come to a conclusion. What was interesting- I don't know if you followed this- as we were coming down to talk about the vote, there were people on the MAG who said 'when I came into this I was skeptical of the idea of using the Moran the way Bob's proposed, but at the end of the process, I'm not. I support it.' And those people being able to talk about how they got from here to there was part of why people, like at NPAs [Neighborhood Planning Assemblies] when they hear those discussions then 'OK, I can sort of appreciate that and support it as well.' There's no doubt in my mind that inclusion and having a broad discussion works. So Moran is a good symbol of how we can move forward effectively as a city. So the last thing I'll say... because I could talk forever... In order for Burlington to attract business and to encourage entrepreneurial spirit and have young people be in the city and to work with the institutions, Burlington has to do what a city is expected to do, well. So that's what I try to foster in all the departments- is that they have a job to do- ideally they do an exceptional job at it, but no matter what they have to do an effective job at it, and I think working with the departments we've been able to do that. Dealer dot com could have gone to California. That was one of their options. They were debating that but they wanted to be in Burlington. CEDO working with them helped them move into the new site on Pine Street. Helped support that process. There are replicated events like that where the city helps to encourage people to be in Burlington, but the fact that we have good schools- the fact that we do pay attention to the streets and sidewalks. Those kinds of details are I think what helps people say 'you know what?'- in addition to the lake and mountains- we're going to choose Burlington. That's good. People do have confidence in the city...the other thing I would say is... when I go to meetings now Burlington wins the accolades because it's actually doing the work. So as a model, almost every thing that's talked about, we're either doing it, or we've done it or we're part of the discussion on how to get there. So when I talk to mayors they're like 'we're going to do what Burlington did' or 'we wish we did what Burlington did.' So when people hear complaints sometimes about congestion issues or parking issues, I talk to mayor's who say 'you think you have a problem? Our downtown is empty. What we're fighting is a drug war.' Burlington has avoided a lot of that by good decision making. Even including, for example, the Police Department. My goal- when I talk about this I say 'I don't want a police department where the people of Burlington are afraid of it. I don't want it to be based in fear. Our Police Department doesn't operate based on fear. I think the whole community policing and community service element of it, and meeting people's needs, is the priority. It clearly has the capacity to use force. But that's not how people see our Police Department. So those views of the world are very important in terms of setting the tone in the city.

HB: OK. Thank you very much for your time today.

BK: Sure Haik.

HB: I think we got a lot of good material here. The readers will be interested.

BK: OK.

HB:And thank you very much.

BK: Thanks Haik.