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Over 130 Dead...
Thursday, January 08, 2009
...Palestinian children. 658 killed so far overall in this "conflict." You know, there's a difference between a "conflict" and a "slaughter." "Conflict" connotes some semblance of parity. There are over a million people in Gaza being devastated, deprived, attacked, killed and utterly terrorized. Who are the terrorists from their point of view? And for what is all of this death and destruction? Retaliation for two Israeli deaths in the past year from badly aimed rockets? Tragic to be sure, but there are solutions to be found without violence. Is it wrong to consider the Palestinian point of view? Does that make me a bad person? They're human beings aren't they? I mean can you imagine? Can you imagine? It's horrible! I wrote to congress and signed a petition but the main and true lever is Obama. He's got to talk Israel down and get more parties involved. The more eyes on the situation the better.
posted by Haik Bedrosian @ 1:19 AM  
  • At January 08, 2009 2:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    We need to speak out! Call your US Senators and Represenatives

  • At January 08, 2009 11:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Being of middle-eastern descent, I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians. I unconditionally support their right to exist without being "devastated, deprived, attacked, killed and utterly terrorized". However, if the many hundreds of rockets launched by the Palestinians into Isreali territory over the past year were better aimed to exact a higher Israeli death count would the level of response from the Israeli army thereby be justified? Should Israel wait until "badly aimed" rockets are more capable of hitting there intended larger targets? On what basis should the US advocate for Israel to limit military intervention in Gaza, especially considering our own ongoing occupations and wars in two foriegn lands? Using your numbers, what number of the .000658 percent of the people living in Gaza who have been "slaughtered" during this "conflict" actively participate in an effort to destroy their neighbors? It's not wrong to consider the Palestinian point of view, just don't exclude the balanced perspective of our own response to threat and the often unintended consequences of war.

  • At January 08, 2009 11:31 AM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    I don't see your point.

  • At January 08, 2009 3:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    If someone punches you is it wrong to punch them back?

  • At January 08, 2009 8:04 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    This isn't two people punching. The analogy is false and it conjures a false mental image of proportionality.

  • At January 08, 2009 9:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Ok, fair. What you are saying is that if Israel attacks Hamas it is not ok, but if Hamas attacks Israel it IS ok. I've never seen anything on this blog before now speaking against Hamas or for Israel.

  • At January 08, 2009 10:33 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Again the frame of your question invokes a false semblance of equality. A attacks B. B attacks A. Like it's a fair fight.

    It's not a fair fight. The Israelis have the Palestinians in a cage. One party is killing a hundred times more people than the other. Poor boys with slingshots against a nation with nuclear weapons.

    It isn't speaking for or against anyone to say that this is the situation. Do you deny this is the situation?

  • At January 08, 2009 11:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    This is the situation. But, you excuse the killing of Hamas with your statements.

  • At January 09, 2009 7:04 AM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    I do not. Save your accusations for another blog.

  • At January 09, 2009 7:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I'll save my accusations for any blog, thank you.

  • At January 09, 2009 8:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I relate to your symathetic feelings toward the oppressed underdog Palestinians. The images I've seen from this conflict are horrifying. I suspect images of all war are emotionally destabilizing. It might explain why the US government is so invested in preventing us from seeing the images of the autrocities that occur as the result of our military during times of war. Because the Palestinian's are incapable of matching the military response of the Israeli's does not excuse their self-defeating behavior. As they are unprepared for and poor at war, they might seek to avoid conflict by ensuring that rockets launched by them don't kill those who are better equipped. Additionally, I would challenge you to post the same indignant outrage on this blog when the next Israeli bus is blown up by a Palestinian suicide bomber or the next Israeli is felled by a rocket attack. The point of my first post (and only other) was that the US Congress and State Department will not intervene for a myriad of reasons. I'll list a few that are top of head:
    1. It would be political suicide.
    2. It would be extremely hypocritical of the US (see Irag, Afghanistan).
    3. It's US weapons being used by Israel.
    4. Chicken or Egg (Palestinian or Israeli aggression)?
    The current "conflict" will subside. Something else will dominate the news cycle shortly and then in six months (a year?) the same cycle of violence will continue in the middle east.
    It's my opinion that the only way to permanently resolve this is for the Jews or the Palestinians to relinquish this piece of land. Seeing as they both believe that the land was given to them exclusively through divine intervention, that solution is untenable and highly unlikely.

  • At January 09, 2009 9:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Check out what congress is voting on today:

  • At January 09, 2009 9:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    At what point did it become reasonable and acceptable that the oppressed become the oppressor? That seems to me the more pertinent question.

    The power differential rightly pointed to by Haik is not going to change anytime soon. You'll note that history has shone (since 1948, at least) that the 'Arab/Muslim World' is not united in any real fashion to pose a threat to Israel. What might have been a remote possibility in the 1950's and 60's can't even begin to be considered a reality today. That is, all of Israel's neighbors attacking her again. Just won't happen. If for no other reason that U.S. support. Not to mention crazy stuff like international law (of course, I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek).

    However, the tacit support of Israel's actions against Palestine is pretty gross. Yes, Palestinians launch rockets (or, maybe its Syrians, who knows...). But any suggestion that Israel is under threat of annihilation is simply silly. If that were true, wouldn't it have happened when there were things like the United Arab Republic? Or when 1/2 of the Middle East (or more) was armed by the USSR? But now, with Israel having nukes and virtually unmitigated US support...the threat to Israel is somehow greater? Logic dictates otherwise.

    Israel, of course, has all rights to defend herself. Of that, there is no question. She is a sovereign state, recognized by international law. So, defend herself, she should. Clearly, that's why its called the IDF. However, I think we'd be hard pressed to argue that the Israeli Defense Force always acts in a defensive manner.

    There is no "R"ight and no "W"rong in all this. In fact, most of it is all wrong. Should Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets, etc? No. But in the end, Israel holds the power. And it does so over Palestinians. There is no equality.

    The great irony is that you have a state--given to a people as their right--telling another group of people that they don't deserve that same right of a homeland/state. And believe it or not, no one has a more historically valid argument than the other as to whose land it least, prior to '48.

    Back to Haik's point: yeah, it's be nice if everyone just got along. But that's not going to happen, for reason far too numerous to list, not the least of which is U.S. involvement. That being the case, isn't it time some person/group/whatever stood up and said "uh, I think this gone on long enough." Who should that be? The powerless or the empowered?

    Just some thoughts.

  • At January 12, 2009 9:43 PM, Blogger Editor said…

    Also I'd like to point out that it's not a matter of "revenge" for Israel... that's more of a Palestinian concept. For Israel, it is purely a matter of protection -- Israeli actions are intended to halt Hamas rockets -- the moment the daily rockets stop, Israel will gladly live in peace forever after. If Israel sought "revenge", they could easily exact a higher toll, and they wouldn't take the extraordinary measures they do to try to avoid civilian casualties.

    It is very difficult to know how to handle a population that is hellbent on your destruction, especially in such self-defeating fashion. Palestinians are suffering but apparently firing rockets into Israeli neighborhoods every single day is still a top priority for them, as carried out by their elected representatives Hamas.

    The path for Palestinian peace and prosperity is so very clear: stop firing rockets and start living your life... Palestinians have waterfront land, they have a peaceful neighbor with whom they could trade, the moment they wish to live in peace it's there waiting, as it has always been.

    But conversely the Israeli path is not at all clear, because no matter what Israel does, Hamas, financed by surrounding Arab states, will be hellbent on harassing and killing Israelis, which is pretty much the same treatment Jews have gotten everywhere else in the Middle East. The Jewish communities of Iraq, Yemen, and many more surrounding countries have already been wiped out in the last 50 years, and now one sizable Jewish community remains in the Middle East: Israel. But Hamas and Iran and Syria are working hard to see that gone, too, fighting a proxy war via the Palestinians.

    Arabs have a perfect track record of wiping out any Jewish populations found on "Muslim" soil.
    Literally, what should Israel do? What is the path forward?

  • At January 12, 2009 11:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Question: do you REALLY think this statement is true?
    "the moment the daily rockets stop, Israel will gladly live in peace forever after."
    What possible indication is there of that? And say it were marginally true, would the state of Israel also begin treating all peoples equally? Would illegal home demolitions immediately cease? Human rights violations? The building of an apartheid wall? You know, as some examples of Israel's actions toward peace.

    Let's remember history: Israel (the state) was created by colonial powers. It was land other people lived in. Why is the "legal" displacement of about a half-million Arabs in 1948 not part of the discussion here? The discourse makes it seems like Palestinians have no real reason to be mad. The realities of history need to be addressed before we start thinking about how peaceful Israel could be if it decided to.

    So, stop firing rockets and then what? They're given a internationally recognized, physically contiguous state? You know, with leaders, and elected officials, and LAW? Cuz they don't so much have that now. The fact that Palestinians are kept at a legal disadvantage means Israel will always have more power (US/European support aside). Oh, and I almost forgot: water. Israel controls much (all?) of the water supply to the region. They just going to hand that over too?

    And again, the idea that Israel's destruction is actually a concern seems both paranoid and massively unrealistic. "But Hamas and Iran and Syria are working hard to see that gone, too, fighting a proxy war via the Palestinians." It's been 60 f'n years. They came closest 30+ years ago. Israel (thanks in large part to our taxes) is a massive capable and frighteningly well-trained and seasoned fighting force. Seriously...Israel is going nowhere.

    "Arabs have a perfect track record of wiping out any Jewish populations found on "Muslim" soil." Uh-huh. And we should suppose Israel is just playing by good ol' Hammurabi's Code on "Israeli" soil?

    Obviously, this debate can go on and on. Cuz, it has and does. But let's be clear: suggesting that this ongoing struggle is really somehow up to the Palestinians to fix is kinda obscene. In other words, Israel's position is "well, you're not going to win, so you should give up and live as 2nd or 3rd class citizens." That doesn't seem like a particularly "Israeli" attitude. Giving up on a homeland, and all.

    Another thing: lots of this debate is about Israel vs. whomever. People seems convinced that all of the ME (other than Israel) supports the Palestinians and is out to get Israel. Ok, so why are millions of Palestinians, after 60 yrs, still "refugees"? How come this united evil force of radical Arab Muslims hasn't gotten together and carved them out a nice little piece of dessert to call home? Where's the unity? Where's the support of the Palestinians? It aint there. No one seems to really care. They ARE a proxy for bigger things. And Israel doesn’t fight against Iran or Syrian. They kill Palestinians.

    It continues to strike me as so sadly ironic that Israel is so willing to place the role of aggressive oppressor to a people who lost their homeland. Serisouly…

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