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Forget Dems & Trouble: It's 'Prog' vs. 'Anon' in long Comment String...
Thursday, March 09, 2006
This article from the Rutland Herald is [adjective], but I don't buy what it says about [whatever]. Considering Peter's Democratic mayoral and gubernatorial nominations and his [something], I'm inclined to congratulate the Progressives for wresting city hall back from the Democrats. Bob Kiss will succeed Peter Clavelle.

Click here to read article (from Rutland Herald 03.09.06)
posted by Haik Bedrosian @ 8:41 AM  
  • At March 09, 2006 2:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I can't imagine the Democratic party going away. What sustains it is money and that will continue forever, sadly.

  • At March 09, 2006 4:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I definitely agree Miller was a very problematic candidate. Based on the numbers, I'm inclined to think she wouldve lost even without the attacks.

    As far as what sustains the Democratic party -- come on down to the Montpelier Dem caucus some time and I'll introduce you to what sustains it. I'd like to think you'd find the recreational dehumanizing of anyone with a D after their name harder to maintain when there are human faces working very hard to make the world a better place looking back at you from the other end of the throwaway dig.

  • At March 09, 2006 5:07 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    What attacks? Nobody attacked Hinda Miller at all. That was the cleanest campaign in the history of the world.

    I agree with you about there being decent hardworking people in the Democratic Party, and in all parties.

  • At March 09, 2006 5:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Montroll would have won the election if he had won the primary. He was a victim (and kiss the beneficiary) of bad timing. He also would have won the last election if Clavelle's progs hadn't swarmed the dem primary unannounced and given their boy the nomination. Very, very few actual democrats voted for Clavelle in that primary - I would bet five bucks that the number was zero, actually.

    Clavelle was never really a democrat, I don't think he ever even formally changed his party registration during the last mayoral election. It was simply a label of convenience. As he has said many times when the democrat switch is brought up, "I'll always be Progressive Pete" - and yes that is a direct quote. It's a popular Progressive theme lately to imply that his "dark years" occurred when he was a democrat, but no matter how much they try to deny it, he was never anything but a Progressive.

    I thought peter freyne's article yesterday hailing the return of the progs was kind of funny. They're down to, what, 2 city council seats? I wouldn't wish the mayor's job on my worst enemy right now, especially for the head of the last guy's party. It's going to be a lot of pressure trying to pull off the fiscal magic that would be required to cover up his predecessor's screwups, and remember, this was a guy who had to be talked into running in the first place. If he doesn't work a miracle and goes down for it, he's bringing what's left of the party with him.

  • At March 09, 2006 5:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    As much as Dems make themselves look awful when it comes to hypocritical national politics, I'm not sure I would go so far as to declare them collectively dead. Perhaps it's my sympathetic outlook as a Progressive who, if one listens to the media, has died more than Kenny on South Park.

    It's important to note that Burlington politics are much different from Vermont's rural areas - making such generalizations tough. The rural Dem organizations, for example, delight in saying how they collaborated with Progressives and as a result, Progs now have rural legislators in office. Burlington, on the other hand, is not that way. We're city folk: bitter, competitive, combative (being facetious here).

    GOP/Barnett's comments in the article grow increasingly out of touch. He said about the Dems recent loss: "...As they become increasingly leftist, it drives liberal voters to the Progressives...." Okaaaaaay..... Now try this: Dems moving to the RIGHT are what gives Progs the votes on the left. It's called displacement. As a recovering Republican-turned Prog, I'm somewhat of an anomaly.

    Perhaps now our local political conversation can turn towards who will replace Kiss in his legislative seat.

  • At March 09, 2006 5:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    People on Hinda's e-mail list just received the note pasted in below...she has apologized for her election night comments...

    I was a Hinda supporter. I think on the whole the scrutiny and media coverage was fair, her experience at Jogbra was certainly fair game, and her comments on election night were wrong. Bob Kiss won this election soundly with a great effort and we should all wish him the best with the tough job ahead.

    However, I would hope that the harsh, personal criticism of Hinda on this blog would now end. She did a brave thing running for mayor -- putting herself out there for detailed inspection -- she worked very hard and she did a lot right. Two other women have tried to win the Democratic caucus in the last 15 years and only she succeeded in the largest caucus ever (1100 people -- it was a night of high political drama for anyone who missed it...).

    She inspired a great group of supporters to put in a huge effort (Hinda's volunteers did a city-wide lit drop and thousands of phone calls too -- not only the Progressive machine worked hard) and came pretty close to a historic victory.

    In the end, she wasn't what Burlington wanted right now. She and her supporters have accepted that.

    However, I believe we should be thankful and respectful when someone of broad experience and accomplishment chooses to subject themselves to the harrowing process of running for public office and a bit forgiving if they don't act perfectly while in the throes of a painful loss.

    She does not deserve to be kicked anymore while she is down...


    Dear Friends,

    Thank you for your support throughout this campaign. I am so grateful for your commitment and the work we did together the last six months. Although we came up short in the end I will always remember the dedication, energy and sacrifice I received from so many of you.

    After the results came in on Tuesday night I phoned Mayor-Elect Bob Kiss, and congratulated him on his victory. I pledge to help him in any way that I can as he begins his new and important role. He ran a remarkable race and deserves all of our support as Burlington starts a new and important chapter in the city’s wonderful history.

    I am sorry that in the emotion of election night I said anything to the media more than this.

    I look forward to continuing to serve you in the Senate and to learning more from each of you. Thank you.



  • At March 09, 2006 7:10 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    I forgive Hinda Miller, of course. She's just a person.

    I wasn't exactly nice on election day myself. I used the Dems own email list to endorse Bob. You can't blame Bob. I'm a lone crazy. And I don't always play fair. I unleashed the Kiss Armyon Hinda the night before the election. Who can stop them?

    And I obviously had vendetta against Joanna Cole. Why?
    Not because she's a bad person, but because she slighted me. I can be petty, but that translates very well in politics.

    Cole's a good person, but my opinion of her lack of leadership qualities, including "manner" can count against her in a democracy if I speak out. That is legitimate.

    So yes Hinda, I forgive you. I could see how much you didn't want to see Reiber, but you knew losing was possible and you should have been prepared for the moment if and when it came.

    Now Bob's gotta face the cameras for at least the next three years. How do you think he feels? Isn't part of you glad you lost?

    And to the person who past on Hindas proper concession and apology:

    Thanks for that. But I don't know about all this "don't kick me when I'm down" talk. This is politics.

    If you tell me what specific thing you see on this blog that you want off, I'll think about it- but I think pretty much everything here is valid and legitimate. I might change if for you, but I need specifics. I change this site constantly.

    Don't trust it.

  • At March 09, 2006 7:22 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Oh and to every one else. Cut me some slack with this here blog. You're like a pack of wild dogs! I'm trying to balance the needs of the many and against my own needs, the constitution, the bounds of decorum, Hinda, the people that people that don't like Hinda, Bob, the people that don't li...(wait a minute, everybody likes Bob. His name should be "Raymond" (get that Freyne?)) ...well you get my point.

    As the little Lebowski would say: There's a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what have yous. BurlingtonPol is great political theatre and you keep on coming back for more...

    But you don't have to, you know. It's a big world. Lotsa choices. If you don't like the content of this site, Change the channel.

    See First Ammendment posted on right.

  • At March 09, 2006 7:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Clavelle ran as P until the last time, when he ran as P/D. He was still registered as P though. The fact that the Dem label didn't fit during the governor's race was the least of his problems there.

    Hey since this seems to be a Prog meeting place, can one of you explain how that property tax on stocks and bonds would work? I've never a met a prog who has responded with anything but "oh that, I don't know anything about that."

  • At March 09, 2006 7:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I don't get the "he's registered as" stuff. Nobody in Vermont registers as anything. Whatever. Clavelle is history.

  • At March 09, 2006 7:39 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Ok, ok. "Progressive Pete" you're right. I was just testing you people. I was wondering when someone was going to notice what I said. I can't remember what Peter ran as. I think at least once as (PC) and once as (P), and once as (D) for governor. I agree...dimes to dollars he'd have done better as a Prog! (Yay Bob!) In fact, Bob Kiss may be the first Progressive mayor. Didn't Bernie always run Independent? I honestly don't remember. I'm just talking out loud here.

    Yeah that "P/D" stuff...that's an oxymoron.

  • At March 09, 2006 8:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I'm loving your blog. How do you register? Every time I try it says "that nickname not available or something.

  • At March 09, 2006 10:07 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    I don't really know how to register. This is just a blog ftp'd to my url. I don't have any technichal skill whatsoever. Maybe try a different nickname...or hell...try your real name. Real names make comments more interesting, me thinks.

  • At March 10, 2006 12:38 AM, Blogger JBaker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • At March 11, 2006 7:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "Progressives hold FOUR Burlington city council seats"

    McDonough and Davis identify themselves as P, who else are you talking about?

    "just watch as Progressives lead the city out of this mess!"

    They had better, as they're the ones who got us into it. Otherwise the impact of that mess becomes their legacy. Undoing the incompetence of the prior Prog administration is going to be a lot different than managing a little 8M budget, most of which was probably set in stone.

  • At March 11, 2006 10:48 AM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Incompetent administrations don’t get re-elected six times. Don’t blame Clavelle for Bush’s lousy economy. The tone of your comment seems to indicate you want Bob Kiss to fail, "anonymous." Instead of being such a negative-Nelly why don’t you offer some ideas to help? Give the new mayor a chance.

  • At March 11, 2006 4:45 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Bush isn't a Republican. He's something else. Something unspeakable! (Cue the Psycho shower music.) Clavelle was a Progressive in name, sometimes, but he just felt really Demy to me.

    Nice day, huh?

  • At March 11, 2006 9:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I was in Burlington today and it seemed better. It was warm and people were outside and happy. I love Bob Kiss!

  • At March 12, 2006 12:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "Don’t blame Clavelle for Bush’s lousy economy."

    You can't be serious. You're blaming Bush for pissing away a fair chunk of the city workers' pension? I mean, you do know what I'm talking about, right?

    "why don’t you offer some ideas to help?"

    I have no idea how they're going to fix it. It was a screwup of staggering proportions, and financial wizardry on that scale is not my wheelhouse. I assume Kiss knew about the problem when he was finally talked into running, and that he has a plan to fix it.

  • At March 12, 2006 1:46 AM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Actually, I'm not as informed as you might think. Did something happen with the pension? Did Brenden Keleher loose a lot of it or something? I've been hearing things like that but I don't know anything about it. What happened?

  • At March 12, 2006 6:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You're blaming Bush for Clavelle's problems, then admitting that you don't know what those problems are?

    With all due respect, if you don't know anything about that situation, you don't really know much about the current state of the town of Burlington, and you should really find out more before getting too excited about defending Clavelle or the Progs.

  • At March 12, 2006 9:00 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    Thanks for the lecture. Why don’t you enlighten me, smarty-pants? Did Keleher lose some of the pension, or what? Don’t just bitch. Inform.

  • At March 12, 2006 9:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Here, a Kiss will make it better.

  • At March 12, 2006 9:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I noticed a link to some party websites. The Progressive Party's is if you felt you wanted to link it.

  • At March 12, 2006 11:54 PM, Blogger JBaker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • At March 13, 2006 8:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "These problems were not caused by Progressive ideas or practices, but can be solved by them."

    There's a very big difference between big P and little p progressive in that statement, and you used the wrong one. Regardless of whether they were following progressive "ideas and practices," the Progressive party did in fact cause Burlington's problems, and are now responsible for fixing them.

  • At March 13, 2006 2:18 PM, Blogger JBaker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • At March 13, 2006 4:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    So one Progressive's victory represents the reemergence of the Progressive party, but another Progressive's mistakes have nothing to do with the Progressive party? Interesting logic.

    The fact remains that no other party had anything to do with Clavelle being mayor. Democrats did not nominate him as the Democratic candidate in the last election, Progressives did.


    It's odd that you would accuse me of drawing that parallel, since it should be obvious that the main point of the post you're replying to is that they are very different. I also explained why Clavelle will always be considered a Progressive by those citizens of Burlington not actively involved in the current Progressive campaign to disown him.

    "While we are at it, why are you afraid to post under your own identity?"
    "Looking forward to laughing at your insipid response!"

    Anything else to ad, Hominem?

  • At March 13, 2006 6:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I sure hope the new mayor isn't stampeded into swallowing whole every millstone/klutz/pizza pol left behind by Clavelle AND cronies. Remember Hinda's plan for her first '100 Days?'
    And, there are also one or two spastic Progs just dying to ride shotgun on the Kiss-wagon, as Haik's ringing endorsement of our long-time city attorney reminded us. BTW, has anyone read McNeil's adulation of Clavelle in the annual city report?
    We still like this question: Will the real Democrat/Republican/Independent/Progressive(D/R/I/P)please stand up, especially in view of comments above ;-))

  • At March 13, 2006 11:22 PM, Blogger JBaker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • At March 14, 2006 12:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "Democrats DID nominate him as the Democratic candidate in the last election, NOT Progressives."

    I guess I'm not that surprised that Progs are attempting this bit of revisionist history, but the way it actually went down falls too squarely in the realm of common knowledge for you to pull it off. Dems who were there that night were furious at the way they were hijacked, and probably still are.

    The notion that the handful of Dems who showed up that night to go through the formality of giving Montroll the nomination suddenly changed their minds when Clavelle came bounding in unannounced is just asinine. He was accompanied by an army of pals, many of whom were known Progressives, and stole the Dem nomination. This is still spoken about by those who were there that night not as speculation, but as incontrovertible fact.

    I don't blame all current Progressives for Clavelle's mistakes. I do blame Clavelle, who was a Progressive; the incompetent buddies that he hired, also Progressives; and the Progressive party, who got and kept him elected during his entire tenure as mayor.

  • At March 14, 2006 2:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Clavelle always said he wasn't into party politics. I wouldn't call him a Progressive. At the moment he's a Democrat since Democrats are the one's who can provide him a nice paying job after he leaves. In the end he'll sway in the wind like any other politician.

  • At March 14, 2006 2:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Pardon me...except for Bob Kiss whose integrity is impeccable. Burlington is really fortunate.

  • At March 14, 2006 3:02 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    I have to agree there. I almost didn't notice Bob at last night's city council meeting. He was sitting near the back of Contois being very quiet and unassuming. You would never know he's the mayor-elect. I love that about him.

  • At March 14, 2006 3:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "Clavelle always said he wasn't into party politics."

    Maybe he said that privately, publicly he said "I'll always be Progressive Pete" - in this case, immediately after poaching the Dem nomination for mayor in 2003.

    "I wouldn't call him a Progressive."

    Well, the Progressives would beg to differ with you.

  • At March 14, 2006 3:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    As I said, he swings in the wind. After that he said somethign to the effect that he meant small p progressive. Lots of people in the party would have preferred his picture be removed from the website. Lots didn't. I remember mentioning his defection to Kiss and Kiss said "i just prefer to remember the good things he's done for Burlington."

  • At March 14, 2006 3:27 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    You can post anonymously, but if you're going to quote first-hand conversations with the mayor-elect, we're all going to wonder who you are. I'm just sayin'...

  • At March 14, 2006 3:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Sorry. I'm nobody but a schlump who loves third parties and adores Bob Kiss. I hope he runs statewide someday.

  • At March 14, 2006 3:41 PM, Blogger Haik Bedrosian said…

    We're going to need him in Burlington for a while...

  • At March 14, 2006 3:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "After that he said somethign to the effect that he meant small p progressive."

    Interesting, that didn't make it into the Free Press article where I found the "Progressive Pete" quote, nor have I seen him qualify his self-appointed nickname like that anywhere else.

  • At March 14, 2006 4:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I'm not sure why anyone would have such high expectations of the Free Press. If you're rich, could please buy it and make it into a real newspaper? Gawd, what a rag.

    And it's pretty obvious he sold his soul to the Democratic party. Why on earth would a progressive endorse Hinda Miller? They have to endorse people with D beside their names. They may have endorsed her but I wonder who they voted for.

  • At March 14, 2006 4:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "I'm not sure why anyone would have such high expectations of the Free Press."

    They were just quoting him.

    "Why on earth would a progressive endorse Hinda Miller?"

    Because Kiss wasn't running at that point, maybe?

    Seriously Progs, you may want to skip this whole "Clavelle who?" thing and keep your credibility powder dry. Burlingtonians know better.

  • At March 14, 2006 8:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You question was about progressive Pete saying he was a small p progessive and why the Free Press didnt' cover it. Again, I say you expect too much from that paper.

    Note from the Seven Days article on Bob Kiss that Clavelle continued to support Miller, even after Kiss entered the race. Again, he's not stupid and probably voted for Kiss.

    Burlingtonians know better? I don't get it. I swear I read Bob Kiss won. Hello? Help me?

  • At March 14, 2006 10:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "You question was about progressive Pete saying he was a small p progessive and why the Free Press didnt' cover it."

    You're talking about the gubernatorial race. This thread is about Clavelle the mayor of Burlington. It's well known that he didn't label himself as a Progressive when running for Governor for obvious reasons. It's equally well understood by the citizens of Burlington that, as mayor, he and his administration were very much big P Progressive for his entire tenure.

    "Burlingtonians know better? I don't get it. I swear I read Bob Kiss won."

    What does Clavelle's status as a Prog have to do with the outcome of a mayoral election in which he wasn't participating?

    "Help me?"

    I'm not sure that's possible, but maybe I can catch you up. The Progressives are trying to pin Clavelle's failures on the Democrats so that they won't be held responsible if Burlington's problems prove to be unfixable in the short term. It's a silly, transparent strategy that isn't working. It's also an insult to a guy that they trumpeted as their own on their website until very recently. That's it in a nutshell.

  • At March 14, 2006 11:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…


    "(P-Burlington Rep. Steve) Hingtgen offered his own opinion of Tuesday's double endorsement:

    'Overall, it's wonderful,' he said. 'The best thing for Progressives is to continue to watch the Democrats struggle, so for a Progressive strategist, this is only good news that the Democrats find the Progressive candidate a better candidate than their own.'"

  • At March 15, 2006 4:30 PM, Blogger JBaker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • At March 15, 2006 5:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "His photo/profile has been off the vpp website since the Gov campaign."

    Wrong, here's the 3/31/05 version, the last one that has:

    Clavelle won the Dem nomination by four votes, so if he only brought five Progs with him then he hijacked the nomination by definition. Everyone I've spoken with who was there that night says that the number was a LOT higher than five. I'm not just talking about people who were never seen before or since at Dem caucuses or other events, I'm talking about people who everyone in the room knew were there for one reason only, and skittered off as soon as they had voted. This is common knowledge among everyone who was there, as well as most who were active in city politics at the time. The way it went down makes Hintgen's snarky comment above even more classless than it appears on its face.

    "Not sure why you think problems are any one Political party's fault..."

    It's not just what I think, it's what most everyone who's lived in Burlington for a few years knows, although a few are apparently trying hard to forget. Clavelle is a Prog, his buddies are Progs, and the Progressive party got and kept him elected. That's why I and everyone I know, regardless of party leanings, hold one party responsible for what he did.

    As far as what that was, I could go on all day, so let's keep it simple - if Kiss can fix the pension disaster without raising property taxes, I'm sure a lot of people will give he and the party a pass on all of the past sins of his predecessor. Be open about the mistakes that were made and cut staff, cut departments, consolidate office space, retool compensation packages, whatever he has to do to fix the mess without sticking taxpayers with the tab. If not, that and a lot of other things are going to be hanging very low and dark over what's left of the party in future elections.

  • At March 15, 2006 7:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…


    "The city Republican chairman, Scot Shumski... said the issues in the mayoral race will be what he called Clavelle's failure to provide leadership, the growing heroin problem in the city and Clavelle's character.

    'The sleazy, underhanded way he hijacked the Democratic Party will make it easier for us to draw distinctions,' Shumski said."

  • At March 15, 2006 11:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    'Tis said the Republicans fight the Democrats, and the Democrats fight each other' - anon.

  • At March 16, 2006 2:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Shumski should lay off the heroin.

  • At March 16, 2006 8:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "Tis said the Republicans fight the Democrats, and the Democrats fight each other"

    I guess that's true here too, when a handful of the Democrats call themselves "Progressives"

  • At October 10, 2006 10:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    FYI - The Pension Fund was gambled in the stock/bonds market and the city lost. Want proof? Read the 2004 City Annual Report pp 106.

    I quote "Again this year, there is an increase in the dedicated tax for the for the employee pension fund. This amounts to ... $400,000. These additional taxes were necessary due to the loss in market value of the pension investments..."

    The major is responsible for everything that happens on his watch - good or bad.

    In my opinion, it was poor fiduciary judgment to gamble taxpayer funds in the market to begin with, completely gutless and dishonest to not accept the blame for the bad call and arrogant to force taxpayers to bail the city out of an investment that should never have been made in the first place.

    I lost money in the market too, but you dont see me asking my neighbors for a handout. I assume full responsibility for my risks and I accept the consequences.

    I personally dont care what party is represented in the major's office as long as the major has the guts to be honest and accept the blame as well as the praise.

    I hope major Kiss does well for Burlington.

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